tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.comments2012-04-05T05:23:57.208-04:00THOUGHTS FROM JAMIEUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger113125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-11986917481171896972012-04-05T05:23:57.208-04:002012-04-05T05:23:57.208-04:00Greetings,
I had about three people post this arti...Greetings,<br />I had about three people post this article on my facebook/twitter feed a couple of weeks ago. I thought about replying, but never got around to it... until now.<br /><br />Since you don't know me - my name is Rebecca and I am a musician. I moved to Toronto a couple of years ago and got to know your father-in-law and brother-in-laws when I helped out with the A/V at RAC. Your father-in-law is cool.<br /><br />Now, for my actual thoughts... for me it has taken some time to figure out the balance between the analysis of music in worship contexts and engaging in honest worship. Because I am constantly studying/listening to music for my job and school (I'm working on a master's degree in music composition) it is logical to me that the more time you spend analyzing music apart from worship contexts the more you will find yourself falling into that pattern by default when you come to God's presence. In many ways, I have created the struggle within myself intentionally because I desire to become better at using the gifts that God has given me with music. So, I have come to adjust in my mind that the analysis is not 'wrong' it is just something I have to work through.<br /><br />This is why I love worship music - it is relatively simple (harmonically, melodically, rhythmically, instrumentally) in comparison to other music that I work on regularly. Therefore, I find that when I analyze what is happening musically, it doesn't take much work to understand, and then put it behind me so I can focus on who God is rather than what the music is doing... the analysis becomes an intuitive process rather than a cognitive one.<br /><br />I will admit, however, because I teach piano six days of the week, that I have found I cannot sit in a seat where I can see the pianist playing - or I just mentally start critiquing their fingering and technique. But this isn't a hard thing to adapt. I actually enjoy "worship/concert events" much more because usually the room is so dark and I am sitting so far away from the stage that I can't see what is happening on stage clearly enough to analyze it.<br /><br />The one aspect of analysis within worship settings that I seem to always get distracted by is the mistakes made by the audio technicians. It doesn't matter if it is during the music or preaching part of worship. Every time a microphone cracks or levels aren't balanced I find it so incredibly hard to remember that I am there to meet with God - I just want to go and fix the problem. This is another reason why I find it easier to focus on my Savior in an event setting - usually the audio people know what they are doing and I can enjoy the fruit of their labor.<br /><br />Regarding analysis of lyrics. Since over the last year I have found myself in a position of leadership with music in the church I now attend (I'm not longer able to attend RAC). Therefore, I tend to spend close to an hour a week praying through the lyrics of the songs we sing on Sunday and critically analyzing them for their theological content. I am still learning so much of what it takes to find lyrics that function a congregation to engage in worship. I have found Bob Kauflin's book "Worship Matters" to be very helpful in working through this (or at least it should be helpful if I can get around to finishing it between assignments).<br /><br />Yes there is a constant tension between analysis of the music and coming into His presence. The music can articulate our emotions, and the words can poetically express our thoughts and desires in ways that we are not able to otherwise. And while the knowledge and appreciation of these is good and edifying... the goal for myself, when I come into these environments, or when I am listening to worship music on my ipod is to find ways to process the analysis so that I can spend time in His presence rejoicing in His character and what He has done for me. <br /><br />I'm not sure if any of my thoughts are useful... except to say - yes I struggle with this too.<br /><br />Blessings,<br />Rebecca FothFothMusichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13049023826116306405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-3362819059597034482012-03-26T15:58:56.287-04:002012-03-26T15:58:56.287-04:00When I have visited big, old cathedral's it ha...When I have visited big, old cathedral's it has caused a sense of awe and wonder, which I think would have changed the dynamic of the worship experience. It is a lot different now as most church auditoriums feel more like a living room. It just gives a different focus on God's character.jamieunitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183957075807312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-30075927979985412972012-03-26T14:45:05.348-04:002012-03-26T14:45:05.348-04:00do you think the church experienced this when they...do you think the church experienced this when they built cathedrals? that magnificent buildings had an indirect effect on the environment of worship? <br /><br />i think of these things as i ponder live conferences.Silashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17113667740069775834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-66180491339900045182011-03-24T11:39:34.382-04:002011-03-24T11:39:34.382-04:00Hey Terra,
It just worked for me. Were you watchin...Hey Terra,<br />It just worked for me. Were you watching in it Google Reader, or directly on my blog? If GR, you might need to click to my blog.jamieunitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183957075807312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-34687837179042140472011-03-24T10:46:03.982-04:002011-03-24T10:46:03.982-04:00the vid seems to have disappeared. can you reload ...the vid seems to have disappeared. can you reload it into your blog?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-13291332099018772852011-03-24T00:24:12.527-04:002011-03-24T00:24:12.527-04:00Good words. They go straight to the heart. No mess...Good words. They go straight to the heart. No messing around with this guy. I like it.<br />Thanks for sharing!Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01875834913316556128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-61579267133106907552011-03-23T22:25:06.210-04:002011-03-23T22:25:06.210-04:00I don't know if he has read it. I doubt he has...I don't know if he has read it. I doubt he has. I don't think he cares about what Bell is saying either. He is in India trying to reach people, which is the point of the video, not about Bell.jamieunitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183957075807312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-24123587614980551712011-03-23T21:57:16.254-04:002011-03-23T21:57:16.254-04:00I'm not really sure this guy knows what Rob Be...I'm not really sure this guy knows what Rob Bell is talking about in his new book 'Love Wins.' I wonder if he has read it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-55708399043991320862011-02-25T12:01:08.914-05:002011-02-25T12:01:08.914-05:00Jamie, a very well written and thought provoking p...Jamie, a very well written and thought provoking post. I will have to simmer on this. I personally don't enjoy MMA or have much desire to "entertain" myself with it, however you've made a good case that it's not a sin and I respect that.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />At what age do you think it's appropriate to introduce this to your children?Russ Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-83070731749087134312011-02-25T11:59:36.619-05:002011-02-25T11:59:36.619-05:00Thanks for sharing this Jamie. Reading that quote...Thanks for sharing this Jamie. Reading that quote makes me want to read the book. This is equally convicting for me. Let us know if you find some ways to overcome it.Russ Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-11166212627137197672011-01-26T23:21:18.410-05:002011-01-26T23:21:18.410-05:00@ben: It is hard to think theoretically, but if my...@ben: It is hard to think theoretically, but if my life was different then now than I would just try to seek God with my talents and abilities. I think I would try it out, but I would fear the lifestyle of women, money, fame, etc. I would hope I could navigate it to make Jesus known in that realm (that desperately needs strong Christian dudes living Godly lives). <br /><br />as for my boys, Vanessa and I want to get our boys into some sort of Martial art once we are back from africa. If one of them became good enough, I would continue to let them move forward as far as they could. If that is what they wanted to do, then I would encourage them. i would want to check their motivations, and how it was affecting them in their walk with God, but i would need to do the same if they pursued a future in hockey or any other sport.jamieunitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183957075807312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-41491014336184721562011-01-26T15:03:26.435-05:002011-01-26T15:03:26.435-05:00Hey Jamie,
I embrace your words of Point 7. Graha...Hey Jamie, <br />I embrace your words of Point 7. GrahamGraham Watthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05208113970443879686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-8955964201309061942011-01-26T14:03:06.869-05:002011-01-26T14:03:06.869-05:00Jamie
great reasons and thinking behind this. I ...Jamie <br /><br />great reasons and thinking behind this. I have two more personal questions:<br /><br />If you had the speed, size and strength, would you fight?<br /><br />If one of your sons wanted to pursue it as a career, what would you say?Bennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-75408129891550213872011-01-26T01:18:35.198-05:002011-01-26T01:18:35.198-05:00Great thoughts, Jamie! I've encountered the sa...Great thoughts, Jamie! I've encountered the same issue and agree with you. Lets be active in doing what God has told us to do before trying to figure out what He hasn't.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10953805454102812415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-10165300820231094212011-01-24T13:49:07.739-05:002011-01-24T13:49:07.739-05:00Haha! Love this.
And you know I love Ehud.Haha! Love this.<br />And you know I love Ehud.Vhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01875834913316556128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-14490593981366448672011-01-20T12:14:41.989-05:002011-01-20T12:14:41.989-05:00I like this. Do more of it ;)I like this. Do more of it ;)Andrew Rozalowskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16076434772907392759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-16572507735406108612011-01-06T15:36:03.020-05:002011-01-06T15:36:03.020-05:00I wouldn't define the parachurch as "an i...I wouldn't define the parachurch as "an institution like the church but without the ordinances". I did say that administering the ordinances was only one of the ways to distinguish the church and parachurch. <br /><br />My understanding of church planting in our day would be starting a church in one place and doing the hard work of winning people to Christ, and building them in their faith. The people who are members of your church you would serve the Lord's supper. When someone comes to faith, you would baptize them. And this would be done in one local congregation. <br /><br />There doesn't seem to be the type of person or church planting organization today that does what Paul did. Maybe that was for one person in a specific time in the church. <br /><br />I would say that 1 cor 1:17 gives some, not full, justification for parachurch work simply because it gives a Biblical precedent for ministry that is specialized, and not doing the full work of a Local Church.jamieunitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183957075807312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-20809802569904870732011-01-06T15:06:21.429-05:002011-01-06T15:06:21.429-05:00I'm not sure it makes him as much like Billy G...I'm not sure it makes him as much like Billy Graham as a frontier missions church planter. His context was too different from Graham's (a relatively Christianized culture).<br /><br />I think that context (of frontier missions planting churches) is important as well. It's hard then to translate that into our Western culture (at least for now). <br /><br />Overall we're close. I think we are both recognizing what Paul was doing and that he was not doing everything a church is supposed to do but should we expect that out of one person anyway? I think that your definition of parachurch skews your reading of Paul's work here resulting in a false legitimization of "parachurch." He did have people following up and he himself followed up the the churches on his return journeys but this was all service done specifically related to the winning of people to Christ with a direct result of their participation in the church. If you want to say that that is what the parachurch does, cool :)<br /><br />Defining parachurch as an institution like the church but without the ordinances fails to recognize the central position of the church and places it on par with it. And there is no reason why a fellowship gathering with some tea that doesn't administer the ordinances shouldn't be called a parachurch either then. <br /><br />I think the etymological sense of the term (para: alongside) gives us a more helpful model for what parachurches are and do. That preserves the central focus of the church in the NT while also allowing for specific pragmatic focuses that leave out the ordinances.<br /><br />If that becomes the definition then 1 Cor. 1:17 no longer functions as a direct legitimizer of parachurch. We just need to start somewhere else in our justification of it (which we can). So, we end up in roughly the same place. <br /><br />Now, to be fair, you said, "one of the ways we distinguish the church and the parachurch is that the parachurch does not administer the Ordinances," which left open the door for a more fullbodied definition. If you said more about its definition I suppose you could render my response mostly irrelevant. <br /><br />If you come closer to my definition then we'll basically be on the same page and I can agree that we can set up parachurches to do something like what Paul was doing but I don't think that's what was in play here.Andrew Rozalowskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16076434772907392759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-5375441315865092572011-01-06T14:12:58.025-05:002011-01-06T14:12:58.025-05:00Hey Andrew,
Thanks for the response.
Would you s...Hey Andrew,<br /><br />Thanks for the response.<br /><br />Would you say that we are saying the same thing? Or where would you think we are saying something different?<br /><br />Paul seems to be going into cities, preaching the gospel, which result him getting kicked out of many cities, but also bears a lot of fruit along the way. After that, he seemingly appoints someone to lead the church in that city. <br /><br />Along the way he does not baptise, and i cannot recall an instance of him leading in the Lord's Supper (that is recorded anyways, correct me if I am wrong). <br /><br />How would you describe those actions? A church planter? Maybe. But if someone in our day went from town to town preaching the gospel and leaving others to follow up, that seems more like a Billy Graham.<br /><br />Thoughts?jamieunitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183957075807312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-19645710158981207902011-01-06T12:35:40.918-05:002011-01-06T12:35:40.918-05:00I hate to be so agreeable again but I do agree wit...I hate to be so agreeable again but I do agree with your first point. <br /><br />On the second one, however, I will offer a challenge. I agree with the legitimacy of parachurch but this verse (1 Cor 1:17) only indicates that Paul (one person, who was a church planter) was not commisioned to baptize. So, a church planter is preaching the gospel but not baptizing which doesn't mean that we can then justify the division of a church and parachurch. The text is talking about a person's work, not institutions. <br /><br />You recognized the church planting element to Paul's journey here but I think the jump to him acting more as a parachurch guy is unfounded since his preaching was meant to build the church and see churches planted. <br /><br />I can see what you are saying on the one hand if you define parachurch as "along side the church" and it provides a pragmatic focus of evangelism all with the goal of serving the church, but as soon as you define it as an organization "which does not administer the ordinances," I think you've lost the intrinsic connection between Paul's focus and the church.Andrew Rozalowskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16076434772907392759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-65041118382579123982011-01-04T13:51:40.053-05:002011-01-04T13:51:40.053-05:00Thanks for the great article Jamie.
I found the p...Thanks for the great article Jamie.<br /><br />I found the place point interesting. "the 21st-century dream seems to be to put down deeper roots". I travel a lot for business and personal, so this just simply hasn't been my experience during the last decade.<br /><br />The point, "The really radical and difficult place to raise a family by 2020 will be . . . the suburbs." I have not thought of this before. I'm pretty comfortable living in the suburbs right now. This is outside my paradigm right now.Russhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07582097546812149546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-74077794868023821482011-01-04T13:44:05.731-05:002011-01-04T13:44:05.731-05:00Thanks for your thoughts Guys!
@Josh - it is hard...Thanks for your thoughts Guys!<br /><br />@Josh - it is hard to make blanket statements. I think this can be classified as a grey area in which certain situations it is a sin to lie, even if you presume it to be for a greater good. For example, "i will lie on my tax return so that i can get more money back and give it to orphans in africa." I cant imagine there being a strong argument for that circumstance. I could be wrong though. Thoughts?<br /><br />@andrew - I think this is where the "two wills on God" is applicable. In one sense, God desires his moral will to be obeyed (ie no lying). But in another sense, in his sovereign will, he allows and even purposes for things contrary to his moral will to occur, in order that he receive greater glory, and a greater good to be done. <br /><br />For more on this, see Pipers article on the subject: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/are-there-two-wills-in-godjamieunitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183957075807312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-64157757641872394242011-01-04T11:28:22.500-05:002011-01-04T11:28:22.500-05:00I agree with your view in point 1.
In general......I agree with your view in point 1. <br /><br />In general... I took this line of reasoning in a discussion a year ago and was hammered pretty good by others! It's dangerous in some ways but I think the Bible doesn't mandate that lying is 100% wrong all the time. It's dangerous because it might be that much easier to justify lying when it shouldn't be justified. But, danger isn't a reason to argue against it. There seem to me to be occassions (like Rahab and others) where there is a higher ethic that trumps lying.Andrew Rozalowskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16076434772907392759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-63293802076366280082011-01-03T14:07:23.822-05:002011-01-03T14:07:23.822-05:00I was talking about this with my pastor on this sa...I was talking about this with my pastor on this same issue last year. It is interesting to see how the reason for lying seems more the issue than the actual act of lying. <br /><br />I agree with you that Rachel was spared because she lied in her reverence for God and his people. <br /><br />I think in general, it is hard to do a blanket statement stance on whether doing bad for the greater good is justified although I can think of certain instances it may be like killing someone during war time (i.e. WWI and WWII).JWohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09575859699702338173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7999922.post-27944549086422117602010-07-07T17:38:36.258-04:002010-07-07T17:38:36.258-04:00@anonymous: So is that a yes? The question I am in...@anonymous: So is that a yes? The question I am investigating isn't "will he", but "could he", based on revealed scripture. <br /><br />You will have to wait until my next post for the day and hour :)jamieunitedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11183957075807312325noreply@blogger.com